One of the most emotionally powerful sessions of that two day conference, to hear Ayaan's most personal story becoming Christian. And to see the respect, despite the weird philosophical schism, between RD and Ayaan.
‘The message of love in Christianity has led to the flourishing of western civilisation’. Really??! Tell that to the inquisition.. also, there are a lot of African and South American countries that are Christian. Are they ‘flourishing’ like western civilisation? What does age mean flourishing because here I’m sure she means spiritual flourishing, right? God is all about the spiritual realm.. europe is primarily godless. Is it not flourishing? What a load of garbage..
Europe is post-Christian but benefits hugely from the legacy.
The inquisition was an abomination to be sure but people claiming to be Christians will do terrible things. The Catholic church at that time was basically a worldly power operating as such powers do, versus a church dedicated to being Jesus' representatives on Earth. Generally, people who end up having worldly power are people who are interested in...power.
I wrote a piece for Quillette that addresses her conversation, your initial response, and the overall question of whether traditional religious belief is psychologically healthier for us. If you have time to read it, that would mean the world to me!
Curiously, this piece has been some kind of rorschach test where readers feel like it vindicates whatever belief they already hold. For the record, I'm an atheist who agrees with you about religion. I love your formulation, "the poetry of reality."
Thanks for the link: you the bases in the quillette piece. It's an invitation to hard-core atheists to have a bit of respect for the sensibility and humanity of their believing brothers and sisters. The automatic, self-righteous, willfully ignorant contempt of some atheists for anything religious annoys me and makes me afraid that anti-religious persecution might ensue in the future. Atheism and religion alike should both strive to fend off our innate tribalistic instincts.
Fascinating discussion that asks the question whether rational thought and secular humanism can ever fill an apparent ‘need’ for spirituality in us humans.
As a staunch rationalist and ofcourse an atheist, I have objection even on the word 'cultual Christian'. One can be culturally British who later on became Christians. What the word Christian literally means is the one who thinks of Christ i.e., Messiah as the sole guide of his life. Moreover, whatever better you see in Christianity of today's times as against Islam of today's times is in fact because of the renaissance or enlightenment happened during the then Christian world which didn't happened in Islamic world. So all this good is credited to the rise of rationalism during enlightenment era and not to Christianity which was existing since hundreds of years before.
This was such a respectful and at the right moments fun debate. It’s great to see such a serious topic being handled in that way. Bravo!
Despite not agreeing with Ali and finding her unable to defend the rationale of her beliefs, I’m so pleased to see she overcame her crisis and found a healthy mental place.
Perhaps there is a singular thread of truth that weaves its way like a rainbow through secular Judaism, cultural Christianity and humanistic Islamism. This was a fascinating and respectful dialogue between two individuals seeking that thread, tugging at it and finding common ground. Bravo! Brava!
So extremely disappointing to me that Ayan converted back to religion - catholic I guess? She was my hero. My mother says she is sorry for me that I don’t believe in god. I am sorry for people who believe in god because the whole thing makes no sense. I don’t need a book to tell me what is right and wrong. I don’t need a supreme being to give me peace, reassurance, comfort when I am terribly sad about horrible things that happen in this world. If I were religious I would be constantly angry at a god that creates and allows so much suffering and misery. So much nonsense in religion. How can it provide any reassurance and peace to anyone? Very strange to me.
I viewed the second half of the video. I would like to take it point by point but that would require an essay, not a comment. Again, Mr. Dawkins, if you read these comments do spend some time in the works of C.S. Lewis (A Mind Awake, Mere Christianity, Problem of Pain) because it will give you a grounding for the things you find problematic about Christianity, a grounding that today's skeptics seem to lack. But go on from there, Christianity is an intellectual journey as much as a heart journey and anyone you read will be wrong about some points.
BTW you are correct, the fact that a belief is comforting is not evidence it is true. And you are correct in saying that the main thing, the most important thing, is discerning what is true.
You come across as sincere and I think you are sincerely asking a) whether Christianity is true, i.e. why should I believe obviously supernatural claims; and b) is there something after death (see unlimited YouTube videos of NDEs from Christians and others in the latter point).
Ayaan is a fantastic representative for Christianity here, good presence, intelligent and genuine, not strident and dogmatic. Please ignore immature Christians who don't present the faith well (there are many).
Be sure that if your journey did lead you to Jesus he would not reprove you but instead have an attitude of "Welcome, friend". Remember that God's true nature is reflected in the best of what we see from other people and that does include graciousness and humility, i.e. the attitudes our true friends show us.
Thanks again for bringing us this rewarding exchange.
I don't actually know that he hasn't and given that CS Lewis is such an icon I would think he might have as an act of due diligence. Then again some of Dawkins' arguments in times past seem to me to indicate he hasn't read CS Lewis. Ultimately I don't know.
Am halfway through the video. Don't know whether you read these comments Mr Dawkins but I do salute you for politely allowing another person to make their points, a civilized habit that is largely absent these days. I was disappointed by the footage of Piers Morgan (filmed I don't know when) who kept interrupting you about some topic I don't remember.
As a Christian of some 25 years I would say regarding some of the questions you have about supernatural aspects of Christianity that they may not all be true. Scripture isn't inerrant despite the claims of some denominations. And there are many legitimate objections one could raise. Me, I believe the resurrection, virgin birth, miracle accounts of Christ's ministry. Not Mary's immaculate conception (a Catholic add-on not found in Scripture).
Augustine was wrong.about many things, he is just grist for the mill but not the last word. I don't believe people are born inheriting sin but they are guaranteed to sin at times.
I highly recommend "A Mind Awake", a collection of C.S. Lewis quotes organized by topic (general editor Clyde Kilby) if you haven't read it. A superb grounding in Christian thought from a man gifted in clarity. He may be wrong now and then of course (not inerrant) but an excellent read.
Thank you for this interesting debate that I am returning to now.
Idiot Ayaan, the kefiyah is NOT a symbol of Hamas.. it’s the Palestinian traditional headdress for men! It’s worn across the Arab world! It’s not even Islamic! She’s obviously talking to an ignorant western audience. What an ignorant woman!!
So she’s trying to put this all down in a book now.. seems to me that this Christian thingy is a career move. What else is she going to write about? She only rose to prominence with a bombshell revelation. She needs another one. I think her publisher advised her to convert! Also, how different is she from her previous Muslim self? Both believe in a god.. she just didn’t like the Muslim god that much.. If finding god can only be achieved through depression, that still is a weak argument for the existence of god.. she’s come back full circle to Muslim Ayaan.
She lost me not only when she became a Christian but worse, when she was quick to condemn Hamas for 7 Oct.. I’m sure she’ll find a following amongst born again Christians in the U.S.
Because the clock started ticking on 7 October.. such tired and lazy logic.. let’s forget the role the colonizing Zionists have been playing since the creation of Israel that led up to 7 Oct.. and psst.. 7 Oct didn’t happen because of some Muslim jihadi operation any more than the Christian Democrats in Germany support the Ukrainians against the Russians.. how easy to reduce everything to religion..
I believe "Live and Let Live" works both ways and I believe that there is a rational reason for accepting that some (many) people are better off with a religion rather than without one, even though it is bull... to us. I don't want it nor need it, but others do. In the book "The Corruption of Reality, A Unified Theory of Religion, Hypnosis and Psychopathology", John F Schumaker, a psychologist, claims that many people have (as a result of evolution), a functional religiosity centre which allows them to corrupt a bit of reality, collectively, in order to increase co-operation and peace of mind. Collectively having this bit of corrupted reality is a ticket to the club (religion). So perhaps some people need this bit of collective corrupted reality in order to remain sane. Without it they resort to conspiracy theories, drug abuse and/or insanity. Perhaps Ayaan Hirsi Ali has found that she needs it and perhaps we should leave her to it? Personally, I don't try to separate people from their religion, but I do suggest to them that they as followers of a religion, have a responsibility (to their god, their fellow believers and to humanity in general ), to make their religion as civilised as possible. Tony Krins
To we who are inclined toward religion it is atheists who are corrupting reality.
Addressing your next topic,
Christianity is a civilizing faith, Islam not.
Atheism does have a crappy track record; Communist Russia and China, North Korea.
That said, I am not opposed to atheists and don't feel any great obligation to convert them. However they inject their mistaken ideas into our culture and as a result people write off religion and suffer for doing so.
Here is a superb Substack piece just written by Freya India asserting what I believe to be true, that the present crisis in mental health (though partly due to technology) is a result of the abandonment of belief.
‘Christianity is a civilizing faith, Islam is not’.. then how do you explain the dark ages in Europe? The inquisition? World Wars I & II? Institutionalized slavery in the U.S.?
How do we know we're "corrupting" reality? From my perspective, in the midst of an enjoyable and inspiring life journey that includes religion, it's the insistence that we can know what reality is that's culturally conditioned and short-sighted.
One of the most emotionally powerful sessions of that two day conference, to hear Ayaan's most personal story becoming Christian. And to see the respect, despite the weird philosophical schism, between RD and Ayaan.
yes
‘The message of love in Christianity has led to the flourishing of western civilisation’. Really??! Tell that to the inquisition.. also, there are a lot of African and South American countries that are Christian. Are they ‘flourishing’ like western civilisation? What does age mean flourishing because here I’m sure she means spiritual flourishing, right? God is all about the spiritual realm.. europe is primarily godless. Is it not flourishing? What a load of garbage..
Europe is post-Christian but benefits hugely from the legacy.
The inquisition was an abomination to be sure but people claiming to be Christians will do terrible things. The Catholic church at that time was basically a worldly power operating as such powers do, versus a church dedicated to being Jesus' representatives on Earth. Generally, people who end up having worldly power are people who are interested in...power.
I wrote a piece for Quillette that addresses her conversation, your initial response, and the overall question of whether traditional religious belief is psychologically healthier for us. If you have time to read it, that would mean the world to me!
https://quillette.com/2024/05/09/the-religious-instinct-in-a-godless-world-atheism-dawkins-ayaan-hirsi-ali/
Curiously, this piece has been some kind of rorschach test where readers feel like it vindicates whatever belief they already hold. For the record, I'm an atheist who agrees with you about religion. I love your formulation, "the poetry of reality."
Thanks for the link: you the bases in the quillette piece. It's an invitation to hard-core atheists to have a bit of respect for the sensibility and humanity of their believing brothers and sisters. The automatic, self-righteous, willfully ignorant contempt of some atheists for anything religious annoys me and makes me afraid that anti-religious persecution might ensue in the future. Atheism and religion alike should both strive to fend off our innate tribalistic instincts.
Fascinating discussion that asks the question whether rational thought and secular humanism can ever fill an apparent ‘need’ for spirituality in us humans.
She's become so delusional, it's sad.
As a staunch rationalist and ofcourse an atheist, I have objection even on the word 'cultual Christian'. One can be culturally British who later on became Christians. What the word Christian literally means is the one who thinks of Christ i.e., Messiah as the sole guide of his life. Moreover, whatever better you see in Christianity of today's times as against Islam of today's times is in fact because of the renaissance or enlightenment happened during the then Christian world which didn't happened in Islamic world. So all this good is credited to the rise of rationalism during enlightenment era and not to Christianity which was existing since hundreds of years before.
This was such a respectful and at the right moments fun debate. It’s great to see such a serious topic being handled in that way. Bravo!
Despite not agreeing with Ali and finding her unable to defend the rationale of her beliefs, I’m so pleased to see she overcame her crisis and found a healthy mental place.
Perhaps there is a singular thread of truth that weaves its way like a rainbow through secular Judaism, cultural Christianity and humanistic Islamism. This was a fascinating and respectful dialogue between two individuals seeking that thread, tugging at it and finding common ground. Bravo! Brava!
So extremely disappointing to me that Ayan converted back to religion - catholic I guess? She was my hero. My mother says she is sorry for me that I don’t believe in god. I am sorry for people who believe in god because the whole thing makes no sense. I don’t need a book to tell me what is right and wrong. I don’t need a supreme being to give me peace, reassurance, comfort when I am terribly sad about horrible things that happen in this world. If I were religious I would be constantly angry at a god that creates and allows so much suffering and misery. So much nonsense in religion. How can it provide any reassurance and peace to anyone? Very strange to me.
I viewed the second half of the video. I would like to take it point by point but that would require an essay, not a comment. Again, Mr. Dawkins, if you read these comments do spend some time in the works of C.S. Lewis (A Mind Awake, Mere Christianity, Problem of Pain) because it will give you a grounding for the things you find problematic about Christianity, a grounding that today's skeptics seem to lack. But go on from there, Christianity is an intellectual journey as much as a heart journey and anyone you read will be wrong about some points.
BTW you are correct, the fact that a belief is comforting is not evidence it is true. And you are correct in saying that the main thing, the most important thing, is discerning what is true.
You come across as sincere and I think you are sincerely asking a) whether Christianity is true, i.e. why should I believe obviously supernatural claims; and b) is there something after death (see unlimited YouTube videos of NDEs from Christians and others in the latter point).
Ayaan is a fantastic representative for Christianity here, good presence, intelligent and genuine, not strident and dogmatic. Please ignore immature Christians who don't present the faith well (there are many).
Be sure that if your journey did lead you to Jesus he would not reprove you but instead have an attitude of "Welcome, friend". Remember that God's true nature is reflected in the best of what we see from other people and that does include graciousness and humility, i.e. the attitudes our true friends show us.
Thanks again for bringing us this rewarding exchange.
What makes you assume RD hasn't read CS Lewis?
I don't actually know that he hasn't and given that CS Lewis is such an icon I would think he might have as an act of due diligence. Then again some of Dawkins' arguments in times past seem to me to indicate he hasn't read CS Lewis. Ultimately I don't know.
Am halfway through the video. Don't know whether you read these comments Mr Dawkins but I do salute you for politely allowing another person to make their points, a civilized habit that is largely absent these days. I was disappointed by the footage of Piers Morgan (filmed I don't know when) who kept interrupting you about some topic I don't remember.
As a Christian of some 25 years I would say regarding some of the questions you have about supernatural aspects of Christianity that they may not all be true. Scripture isn't inerrant despite the claims of some denominations. And there are many legitimate objections one could raise. Me, I believe the resurrection, virgin birth, miracle accounts of Christ's ministry. Not Mary's immaculate conception (a Catholic add-on not found in Scripture).
Augustine was wrong.about many things, he is just grist for the mill but not the last word. I don't believe people are born inheriting sin but they are guaranteed to sin at times.
I highly recommend "A Mind Awake", a collection of C.S. Lewis quotes organized by topic (general editor Clyde Kilby) if you haven't read it. A superb grounding in Christian thought from a man gifted in clarity. He may be wrong now and then of course (not inerrant) but an excellent read.
Thank you for this interesting debate that I am returning to now.
Idiot Ayaan, the kefiyah is NOT a symbol of Hamas.. it’s the Palestinian traditional headdress for men! It’s worn across the Arab world! It’s not even Islamic! She’s obviously talking to an ignorant western audience. What an ignorant woman!!
Ok halfway through and can’t finish this load of crap.. and Dawkins is uncharacteristically quiet and letting this BS pass..
So she’s trying to put this all down in a book now.. seems to me that this Christian thingy is a career move. What else is she going to write about? She only rose to prominence with a bombshell revelation. She needs another one. I think her publisher advised her to convert! Also, how different is she from her previous Muslim self? Both believe in a god.. she just didn’t like the Muslim god that much.. If finding god can only be achieved through depression, that still is a weak argument for the existence of god.. she’s come back full circle to Muslim Ayaan.
She lost me not only when she became a Christian but worse, when she was quick to condemn Hamas for 7 Oct.. I’m sure she’ll find a following amongst born again Christians in the U.S.
Sure, why would anyone criticize the peace-loving humanitarians of Hamas over 7 Oct?
Because the clock started ticking on 7 October.. such tired and lazy logic.. let’s forget the role the colonizing Zionists have been playing since the creation of Israel that led up to 7 Oct.. and psst.. 7 Oct didn’t happen because of some Muslim jihadi operation any more than the Christian Democrats in Germany support the Ukrainians against the Russians.. how easy to reduce everything to religion..
I believe "Live and Let Live" works both ways and I believe that there is a rational reason for accepting that some (many) people are better off with a religion rather than without one, even though it is bull... to us. I don't want it nor need it, but others do. In the book "The Corruption of Reality, A Unified Theory of Religion, Hypnosis and Psychopathology", John F Schumaker, a psychologist, claims that many people have (as a result of evolution), a functional religiosity centre which allows them to corrupt a bit of reality, collectively, in order to increase co-operation and peace of mind. Collectively having this bit of corrupted reality is a ticket to the club (religion). So perhaps some people need this bit of collective corrupted reality in order to remain sane. Without it they resort to conspiracy theories, drug abuse and/or insanity. Perhaps Ayaan Hirsi Ali has found that she needs it and perhaps we should leave her to it? Personally, I don't try to separate people from their religion, but I do suggest to them that they as followers of a religion, have a responsibility (to their god, their fellow believers and to humanity in general ), to make their religion as civilised as possible. Tony Krins
To we who are inclined toward religion it is atheists who are corrupting reality.
Addressing your next topic,
Christianity is a civilizing faith, Islam not.
Atheism does have a crappy track record; Communist Russia and China, North Korea.
That said, I am not opposed to atheists and don't feel any great obligation to convert them. However they inject their mistaken ideas into our culture and as a result people write off religion and suffer for doing so.
Here is a superb Substack piece just written by Freya India asserting what I believe to be true, that the present crisis in mental health (though partly due to technology) is a result of the abandonment of belief.
https://www.freyaindia.co.uk/p/our-new-religion-isnt-enough?utm_source=feed&triedRedirect=true&open=false
‘Christianity is a civilizing faith, Islam is not’.. then how do you explain the dark ages in Europe? The inquisition? World Wars I & II? Institutionalized slavery in the U.S.?
How do we know we're "corrupting" reality? From my perspective, in the midst of an enjoyable and inspiring life journey that includes religion, it's the insistence that we can know what reality is that's culturally conditioned and short-sighted.